Welcome to Jesus Saves? Online

Session 2 - Study materals

Presentation with written notes

Key texts for session 2

Question Week 2:

Please respond to the following question after you have studied the materials for session two.
 
What are the similarities and differences between what Jesus and the gospel writers said about salvation and what Paul said about salvation? 

Please add your comment below.
Name:
Email:
Your Story:


3/31/2008
Mary Steffl
msteffl@trinitylc.org
Hi All - Sorry it has taken me so long to get in on the discussion! I have just read through all the comments here and most resonate with what you said Walt, about what salvation really is, and what has worked for me all these years - to quote (because you said it so well for me) "I am comfortable that my faith in Jesus Christ will allow me to be the recipient of God's grace in the form of salvation, and eternal life. I attempt to "do good" not because I feel I can earn God's grace and salvation, but as a weak human attempt to say "thank you" to God for his gift of grace. To me the grace comes first and my actions are in response to God's grace. I expect nothing from God in return for my "good" actions. I know I disappoint God when my actions are less "good" but I know God still loves me and will forgive me if I am truly repentent for those actions." I also like your thoughts on "when Jesus says "the way is hard" or the "gate is narrow" he is simply acknowledging that it is hard to love the unloveable (sometimes even the loveable), but that is what we are called to do. I love that your "tan" can get you into faith conversations, Toby, who woulda thought?

3/28/2008
Toby
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I have not stopped talking about the Mexico Mission trip that I was on since I got back. My tan opens the conversation door on my feelings about how excited I am for our High School missionaries that allowed me to share the experience. It has provided me the opportunity to share what our young adults accomplished. Today my haircutter, boss, office administrator, teacher friend, 9th grade friend to my daughter, as well as a mom friend of a ninth grader also heard my thoughts of the mission trip as well as opened discussions with some of them on faith. Walt, as I fumble through life and strive to continue growing in my faith, the one constant that brings me joy and provides a connected feeling to God is service. I also believe that one of the key lessons Jesus was teaching is that we glorify God by serving others and as you say loving our way down the path. A morning prayer for me is to ask to "Magnify the Lord in all I do." --- signed, humbly trying -----

3/28/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
I was also wondering how in the world a dry cleaners visit can turn into a salvation discussion. I've had some interesting plane discussions based on a book I was reading but never in the line at a dry cleaners. I'd love to hear the story some time.

3/28/2008
Ann Wolff
wolff701@msn.com
At the dry cleaners!?! That's amazing! I love the prayer of St. Francis! My kids all prayed it every night. Interesting thoughts from both of you. They resonate with me.

3/27/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
I've been thinking about Jesus' life on earth, and his actions toward people. Jesus had nothing to gain from loving others -- he is/was God and as such, he knew he would suffer and die, but would be raised to eternal life. The only reason he had for doing good works was to glorify God, and to demonstrate God's love for all -- especially those considered least lovable by their community. Maybe I'm starting to get it -- Jesus did what he did not to show us the way to salvation was through deeds, but to show us the way to salvation has already been paved for us and we simply need to love our way down the path. When Jesus says "the way is hard" or the "gate is narrow" he is simply acknowledging that it is hard to love the unloveable (sometimes even the loveable), but that is what we are called to do.

3/27/2008
Toby
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I had an interesting conversation with an individual at the dry cleaners today. Her thought was that she had an enlightening moment around the time that she was 40 and that she felt she had paid in full her sinners debts. She also said she thought she had and old soul that had been on earth times before in other lives. She felt that she was fine as long as she did not do anything more wrong. These thoughts do not match mine or what I read in the Gospels or Paul's letters in that I don't believe we can pay off our debts, we only have them forgiven (grace). As far as stewardship, I have been reflecting on the Prayer of St Francis lately which includes that it is only in giving that we receive. This does not suggest for me that we should give in order to receive but we should give as a response. Scattered thoughts.

3/27/2008
Ann
wolff701@msn.com
My radar screen always picks up messages of gratitude and stewardship so reading Walt and Toby's comments were especially interesting to me. In the reading and learning I have done for our Gratitude Team, grace is the new word to explain stewardship. God's grace is abundant and overflowing and the grace of stewardship is a response of overflowing gratitude to God. It's a little off the subject, but discussion of salvation always goes deep into the heart and soul where lies gratitude.

3/27/2008
Siri
serickson@trinitylc.org
Walt, You are exactly correct. Luther loved Paul's letters and largely built his theology (and thus, Lutheran theology) with them as the main starting point!

3/27/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
I found an interesting quote in the book Luther The Reformer. The author quotes Martin Luther's comments about the most useful books in the Bible. He included the gospel of John, and the letters of Paul and the first letter of Peter in his list of "most useful". About these books Martin Luther said "You will not find much said in these books about the works and the miracles of Christ, but you will find a masterly treatment of how faith in Christ conquers sin, death, and hell, and gives life, righteousness and salvation." Maybe that explains why those of us who grew up in the Lutheran tradition tend to rely on Paul's letters as our "guide" and the gospels as important reading about Jesus' work on earth.

3/23/2008
Toby Hammer
toby_hammer@cargill.com
Happy Easter to all, I was delayed in the reading and entry for this past week as I was on the Mexico Mission trip with our fine Young Adult High Schoolers. What an Awesome Adventure!!! I was raised in the Catholic church, was influenced by a father who attended a Lutheran church with his Mother who lived with us, went up to an altar call at a Billy Graham crusade in 7th grade, was influenced by a Baptist Youth for Christ leader during my high school years, enjoyed Life in the Spirit seminars with the Catholic church during high school years, and lastly was influenced by my wife Jennifer's Lutheran understanding of Grace when we dated. Needless to say, I have a fond connection to all these influences. They all have been a positive influence in my current understanding of our salvation through Jesus; from Jesus being the new covenant, to the need for repentance, to Grace being a gift, to the need to respond to the gift God gives us, and the knowledge that I can not save myself through good works. I am humbled through my weakness, and can only be an instrument of any value to God through the Holy Spirit's invovement in my life. I find promise in both the Gospels and in Paul's letters as well as commands to follow. Walt, I hear your comments of "good" actions. I don't tend to think about whether I am doing good actions as much as I think about follow His will or following His calling. This is a daily and sometimes hourly response for me. I find the greatest joy in my life when I feel I have answered His call in a manner that His name is gloryfied, not mine. This is a difficult yet rewarding challenge for me, as I fight the distractions of this world continuously. Siri, I like your comments and agree on the influences of Paul's letters on the Lutheran theology. When I read the gospels, I tend to reflect on the Catholic and Baptist influence in my life.

3/22/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
Our men's group is studying a book on Martin Luther. As I was exploring how the Gospels deal with salvation, I was struggling with Martin Luther's focus on grace. It was not seeming to align with how the gospel writers understood salvation - as taught by Jesus. After reading Paul's thoughts I am feeling less conflicted. Jesus' words make salvation seem much more difficult to attain. There are references to "faith" being sufficient, but many of the texts in the gospels indicate that faith alone is not sufficient. I was feeling quite convicted after reading the gospel texts. The references to "good" and "evil" and the "narrow door" are scary. I certainly don't feel like I am evil, but have I done enough good to "make the cut"? My final thoughts come back to one of my core philosophies: I am comfortable that my faith in Jesus Christ will allow me to be the recipient of God's grace in the form of salvation, and eternal life. I attempt to "do good" not because I feel I can earn God's grace and salvation, but as a weak human attempt to say "thank you" to God for his gift of grace. To me the grace comes first and my actions are in response to God's grace. I expect nothing from God in return for my "good" actions. I know I disappoint God when my actions are less "good" but I know he still loves me and will forgive me if I am truly repentent for those actions.

3/19/2008
diane rollie
drollie@trinitylc.org
I was struck by the differences in tone between the gospels and the epistles. The interpreters of Paul's letters seem to have chosen sharper, more severe words than Jesus' translators chose. Paul's letters encompass "all" as sinners with a broad-feeling brush stroke, which of couse is true---"all have sinned," "all who are 'made right' with God through Jesus." Jesus' words seem a little kinder, less judgemental: "not to judge, but to save," and the word "believe," "believe," "believe and know." I really enjoyed reading all these passages again and putting them down in chart form to compare them.

3/17/2008
Ann Wolff
wolff701@msn.com
That is interesting Siri. When I'm looking for something inspirational, I always go to Paul's letters. I have never given it a second thought.

3/17/2008
Siri
serickson@trinitylc.org
Ann, I grew up in a similar way. Through recent studies, I have come to believe that traditional Lutheran theology is based more on Paul than on Jesus' teachings in the gospels. We then have read the gospels through Paul's framework, which sometimes works but other times really doesn't work. I wonder what it would look like in our theology to give priority to Jesus' teachings. I do think the emphasis on loving and serving our neighbors flows out of Jesus' teachings.

3/16/2008
Ann Wolff
wolff701@msn.com
What I have learned so far is really surprising to me and especially because I have certainly read the Gospels and Paul's espistles many times, but obviously I have never charted and studied them to understand the differences. I was especially surprised to realize that Jesus didn't speak about salvation as much as about the Kingdom of God. In my Lutheran experience, salvation, not the Kingdom of God seemed to be the most important concept. It is easy to see how different Christian churches or individuals choose a key theme and claim it to be the overriding truth. Through Sunday School and confirmation, I recall being told that the most important passage in the Bible and the overriding truth in the Bible is John 3:16--that believers would have eternal life and non-believers would perish. It would be interesting to know (and I guess I'll have to ask) if other people who grew up in the same church as me (this one) learned the same thing. John 3:16 is actually more judgmental that I personally chose to believe, but I was amazed to realize that the common assumptions are visibily oversimplifcations. Having taught Sunday School and confirmation for many years, it's humbling at best and dangerous at worst to think of lay leadership in educational roles. Today I am more inspired by the emphasis on service.

http://www.frontporchwebsolutions.com/