Jesus Saves Online

Session 3: The Satisfaction Theory and the Classic Theory

Presentation with written notes


Question Week 3:

Please respond to the following question after you have studied the materials for session three.
 
What do you think about these two theories of salvation? Are either of these two theories of salvation close to what you currently believe? 

Please add your comment below.


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4/22/2008
Toby
toby_hammer@cargill.com
Ann, your thoughts remind me of a couple of conversations that I have had recently, one with my youngest son and one with my mother. Both conversations suggested limitations of God in the sense of how can God hear and respond to all our voices and how can God have a relationship with each one of us? I agree with you in thinking these limitations are associated with our minds and our comprehension. I am so thankful that God is so much bigger than my feeble brain power. The challenge and sin for me is the limitation of that same mind.

4/22/2008
Ann Wolff
wolff701@msn.com
I like the symbol of the gift on the doorstep. I like the discussion that shows we all believe differently because of our experiences, our education, the time and the place where we live. I have always liked the title of a book I read many years ago--"Is Your God Big Enough?" To me, faith is also a gift and it is a one-size fits all gift. People of all intelligences, ages, eras, cultures can have a strong and reassuring faith. God, in the image of a parent, has to love that relationship that grows when the receiver accepts the gift on the doorstep. The giving of a gift creates a bond, starts a relationship. Even if a stranger offers a seat on the bus, there is an uplifting feeling of gratitude that sparks a connection probably until the end of the ride and may even make a difference in the entire day of either the giver or the receiver. No matter what the basis for the faith, it is the relationship that develops from that faith that sustains us in all times. Like Walt, I too have a simple faith. I have assurance of the existence, love, and eternal promise of God. If that assurance was just for me I wouldn't be so comforted, but I am further comforted that God is big enough that God, again the image of the parent, scoops everyone into God's arms when they open that gift and respond in gratitude and in faith. For some people it may not even be until after death. We talk about the peace of God that passes all understanding. The love, the mercy and grace of God are also way outside our realm of comprehension.
I guess I can ramble with the best of you. When I open the front door to get the newspaper in a few minutes, I'm going to think of the gift on the doorstep and my day is going to be filled with gratitude, faith, love, peace. Thanks for sharing your faith and understandings. It always strenghtens mine.

4/20/2008
Walt
waltogburn@yahoo.com
Thanks Toby for the additional thought. This is now helping me frame an understanding. When I receive the box on the front step and have to respond, whether I throw it away unopened or open it. When I open it I find a shirt. I know have a choice, I can wear the shirt (eternal life or salvation) or throw it away, or leave it hanging on a hanger in my closet. The choice is up to me. The gift came with no rules or expectation. I have free will to decide whether or not to fully accept the gift and make it part of my life.

4/19/2008
Toby
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I believe the gift requires a response, if you want to call that thought conditional, then I believe it is. A gift that is on the door step can be left on the doorstep, to leave it there can be the response. I also believe it is only God that can judge that response because it is God that is offering the gift of salvation. Eph 2:8 states: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Does this suggest faith is the gift or salvation or both? Whether it is faith or salvation that is the gift, it is a gift that I did not earn, it is, however, a gift that I accepted; but again, that is for God to judge. I also like eternal life with God as opposed to the concept of salvation, because eternal life with God can be in the here and now. So Siri, maybe for me, the whole discussion changes. In summary, for me, the gift is unconditional in who it is offered to, the result of that gift is conditional on a response that only God can judge.

4/18/2008
Walt
waltogburn@yahoo.com
As I was reading your thoughts I realized that the contradictory concept has always been in the back of my mind. One of my strengths is intellection which means it is very hard to quite my mind. I think in this case I would think of God as a gift giver but because I could not find an answer that was more logical (I also have Analytical as a strength) I just let that question lie quietly in my brain and I moved on. Now I'm starting to question whether I have faith because God has saved me or if he saved me because I have faith. Great Siri - in my 53rd year as a Lutheran you make me examine my core beliefs :-)

4/17/2008
Siri
serickson@trinitylc.org
Walt, you have described a very traditionally Lutheran understanding of this whole topic. I have to admit that certain aspects of this understanding seem contradictory. Let's say I wanted to give you a gift. Which scenario sounds like a gift? Unexpectedly an unwrapped gift arrives at your house with a note on it "This gift is for you. Happy Birthday, Walt". Or, I want to give you a gift, but before I will give it to you I choose to 1) wait for you to have faith in me, the giver, and 2) wait for you to do something or say something that signals to me that you are ready to accept the gift. In the second case, it no longer really seems like a gift to me because it has conditions. I will only give you the gift IF YOU... I don't think that we can on the one hand say salvation is a gift and on the other hand say that you have to do or believe certain things in order for God to grant you the gift. Either it is a gift in the fullest sense or it isn't. This, of course, is mostly predicated on the idea that salvation means that our souls will get to be with God after we die (rather than be in hell or separated from God). If we believe that salvation can also be experienced in the here and now, the whole discussion changes, as we will see with the feminist and ecological theories of salvation.

4/17/2008
Walt
waltogburn@yahoo.com
This morning I was reading the Luther Seminary electronic devotions. The focus was on John 14:1-14. This exchange between Jesus and Peter has always challenged my thinking. Verse 6 really caught my attention today: "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

My thoughts from two different discussions converged. Clearly this says something about salvation (a lot actually). The other topic in my mind is communion since our Men's Group is studying Martin Luther and we currently are discussing what communion really is. As I read this verse it left me thinking that our salvation occurs as a gift from God fwhich we receive only because of our faith in and our willingness to follow Christ. Each time we commune we are "with Christ". Whenever we receive the bread and the wine we recommit to our desire to "know" Jesus and thus the Father. In my mind we are doing God's "work" when ever we commune and we are renewing our personal commitment to following Jesus' example and teaching.

I quess I have to admit that my thinking was shaped more heavily by Martin Luther than I had previously thought. All my young adult "guestioning" did not help me gain any new insights, just reconfirmed that the core of what Luther professed had clearly been impressed in my beliefs.

4/16/2008
Toby Hammer
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I am still with you Siri, bring on the criticisms, I don't usually hear that end of the discussion. :-)

4/15/2008
Siri
serickson@trinitylc.org
Thanks for your responses! Let me try to address some of the themes and issues that you all have raised in your responses to this material. First, for the record, I don't personally like either one of these theories. The point of studying them is not so much that we need to like them. They may indeed make our brains hurt, but I think it is important to understand the distinctions. It is also important to understand that throughout Christian history, people have tried to understand God's saving work through a variety of different explanations. I think a lot of people believe that there is only one true way to understand what the Bible and the church teach about salvation. That way often gets reduced down to the formula that Jesus died for our sins and all we need to do is believe and accept that Jesus made the sacrifice for us. I have always been puzzled by the idea that God's way of saving the world was to send Jesus to die a gruesome death. The satisfaction theory is still pretty dominant in American Christianity, and you will find many of its basic themes in a lot of the music we sing in worship. Since I don't like the Satisfaction theory, I often find it difficult to sing and say things in worship that I don't believe. In our next and final lesson, we will encounter some of the criticisms of these two theories. The modern theories and their criticisms only make sense if we first understand what they are building upon in terms of the history of Christian thought.

4/14/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
Thanks Ann and Toby for responding. I was getting a little paranoid after no one responded. I was beginning to think I had totally blown the question and everyone was to embarrassed to respond. The good news is Siri informed me there are no wrong answers and the essays aren't graded. Is that a form of salvation?

4/14/2008
Toby Hammer
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I re-read my thoughts below. They seem scattered, it late after a long day on the road.

4/13/2008
Toby Hammer
toby_hammer@cargill.com
I apologize for not responding when I read this lesson for the first time but it seemed to ask me to think harder than I care to. I would not describe my faith as a thinking persons faith, I be not feel the need to choose between one theory or another. My faith is simple, all I ask is God to show me where I can serve him and ask him to help me get out of the way in order to answer his call. If someone asks me if I am saved, like Walt, I say yes, absolutely. I believe we will all meet Jesus after this life. I also believe that good and evil are not equal, and as such the devil is not equal to God. Ann, I hear your comment about the possibility of God reaching out to others through other faith's even if they are different than yours. I believe God is merciful, in fact I am betting my eternal life on the fact that he is. I like the following prayer:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
have mercy on me, a sinner."

4/12/2008
Ann Wolff
wolff701@msn.com
I also do not agree with these two theories. I have always believed that God can do anything. God could offer salvation to everyone with a word or a breath or a thought or the blink of an eye or the flick of a wrist or anything. So why did God choose to send Jesus as a sacrifice? God is always trying to get our attention (think Old Testeament stories). I don't think this was the only way it salvation could have been accomplished. I think that at that time, sacrifices were something commonly understood. Still today, it certainly is an impactfull illustration to us of God's unconditional grace and mercy. As a teacher, I was always thinking, what must I do so that they will understand and learn and remember and even believe. Just telling was never enough. Please don't excommunicate me, but I also think that God chose different ways to get people's attention in the form of different religions. We can learn of God and catch glimpses of God through many different people and situations. Is what I've put together as a belief system way out of synch with everyone else? I certainly believe what we confess, as Lutherans or as Christians, but I don't discount any other possibilities in addition. Maybe the class I need is "This I believe" except we're going to be on vacation so I hesitate to sign-up.

4/2/2008
Walt Ogburn
waltogburn@yahoo.com
I clearly do not believe the earliest theology which gave the power to the devil. I have always believed that God has the ultimate power -- he can raise the dead. Jesus' death was as an example to the world that ultimately we will all leave our earthly body. How you lived your life can not stop the physical death.

The power is demonstrated in the resurrection. When Jesus was raised from the dead, it demonstrated that God has the final say in our eternal life. I guess this is the point that I define how I understand the Bible. Even though there is language that talks about Jesus as the ransom, I don't feel that is ultimately God's plan. I believe the writers who focused on God's grace. I view God as having ultimate power over everything. I also view God as being love. When I put those together I come to the conclusion that God loves all people so much that he allowed Jesus to suffer and die solely so God could demonstrate that death was not the end. When God raised Christ (in a new physical form) he gave us a glimpse of heaven or eternal life. Just as Jesus didn't do anything other than believe in God and trust him to be raised, we don't need to do anything to receive the gift of salvation beyond believing in God and trusting him. The only part of this that I am not sure how to justify in my mind is the fact that my description says I'm no different from Jesus. Clearly that is false. Somehow, I came to believe the writings from the Bible that say "my faith is enough" to overcome my human weakness and my sinful ways. For some unknown reason (is love enough?) God has chosen to give me the gift of salvation which I can never earn. In my mind this could be called the Easy Love Theology. I struggle because in a way I feel it is too easy, and Jesus was quoted in the gospels as saying the way to salvation is hard.

Okay, I'm still confused. But at least I know I'm saved :-)


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